Corona virus outbreak

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Nemo
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by Nemo »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:29 am
Nemo wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:14 am I've watched people die of infectious diseases and understand the logistics of what comes next once our just in time ragged edge medical system breaks down. You are clearly some spoiled first world brat who has never seen random people drop dead from infectious disease.
Wrong. I in fact belong to developing nations where people are assumingly much less spoiled. Surprisingly, this is what i shared on my Facebook yesterday:
There is something more to the Covid-19 panic. It is the latest phenomenon to fulfil a weird and growing appetite for doom among the populations of developed countries. We are living in the healthiest, most peaceful time in history, yet we cannot seem to accept it. We constantly have to invent bogeymen, from climate alarmism, nuclear war and financial collapse to deadly diseases. Covid-19 has achieved such traction because it has emerged at just the right time. At the end of January, Brexit had just been completed without incident. The standoff between the US and Iran — which preposterously led the ‘Doomsday Clock’ to be advanced closer to midnight than during the Cuban missile crisis — fizzled into nothing. The Australian bush fires, which caused an explosion in climate doom-mongering (even though the global incidence of wildfires has fallen over the past two decades) had largely gone out. What more was there to worry about?
https://beta.spectator.co.uk/article/Th ... OG2_dxgXXY
On our current trajectory many people will needlessly die because of a lack of preparation.


Could you provide examples of people dying purposefully?
You seem to confuse preparing for a crisis with panicking.
Declaring a crisis is the act of bringing the status quo into attention:
Fully worn out is this body, a nest of disease, and fragile. This foul mass breaks up, for death is the end of life.
I'm a medic. To me Covid 19 will be a logistics problem. SARS was a shitshow. As is dengue and that is only a 2.5% case fatality rate. ICU capacity will be exceeded and for lack of basic nursing care and 02 therapy thousands of people will die. if we were prepared they would survive. Meaning they needlessly die because we did not make the basic preparations necessary to keep them alive. That is negligent. Many medical staff will be infected due to a lack of masks and protective equipment. Some of them will die trying to save other people and infect their own families. People dying because ding dongs didn't take pandemics seriously seems to escape your feeble understanding of the real world. This isn't a philosophy lesson. It's basic science. Humans will lack oxygen in their blood which medical personnel could give them but because we didn't get ready in time they will asphyxiate and die needlessly.
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mikenz66
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by mikenz66 »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:06 amIn the system, phenomena is divided into disciplines or fields of interpretations/expertise, where individuals become more skilled in the technicalities related to their respective fields. While the practicle necessity of dividing phenomena into fields of expertise could mean that individuals within a certain field are more likely to be able to talk about it with more plausibility than average people, it equally means that their interpretation of phenomena is equally likely to be excessive (cognitive biases) simply because they are trained to see it in this particular way, and because their value to the populace is driven by their ability to interpret it as such (hence they are part of the populace, not elites as the term "scientist" would imply).
I think this is a rather implausible line of reasoning. It's true that individuals skilled in science, engineering, or medicine are quite specialised, but in their particular field they can not only "talk about it with more plausibility than average people", they can actually use their knowledge to do stuff (otherwise known as "engineering"). An understanding of semiconductors led to transistors (1947) and current semiconductor chips, and an understanding of quantum mechanics, and so on enabled the development of lasers, optical fibres, etc, in the 1960s. Further developments have made encryption based on quantum entanglement possible.

It's not that the people who did this stuff were "more plausible" than average people. It's that they had knowledge that the average person simply does not have.

Now, you've probably noticed that my examples are not in the area of pandemic management. That's because I am not an expert in that area. Nemo, on the other hand, has apparently worked in that area, so I've no idea why you are so dismissive of his knowledge. Furthermore I do know people who work in related areas (for example, my son works at Columbia U, in New York, on statistical analyses of the spread and treatment of Aids). In my experience, people work in such areas because they care about people.

As I said, this idea that experts are just charlatans is one of the scarily crazy developments of the 21st century. We rely more and more heavily on technology that is only possible because of science and engineering expertise, but there is more and more distrust of those experts.

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Mike
Bundokji
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by Bundokji »

Nemo wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:44 am I'm a medic. To me Covid 19 will be a logistics problem. SARS was a shitshow. As is dengue and that is only a 2.5% case fatality rate. ICU capacity will be exceeded and for lack of basic nursing care and 02 therapy thousands of people will die. if we were prepared they would survive. Meaning they needlessly die because we did not make the basic preparations necessary to keep them alive.
I fully understand that you are presenting the vantage point of a medic. This reminds of Spinoza:
“I believe that a triangle, if it could speak, would say that God is eminently triangular, and a circle that the divine nature is eminently circular; and thus would every one ascribe his own attributes to God.”
Just a reminder, that dying does not seem to be the worst happens to human beings evident by the fact that some end their own lives, and many wish it to end when they are under extreme stress. This is one way of thinking about the teachings of the lord Buddha, that his focus was not on solving the problem of death, but that of stress. As such, approaching death is relevant to the extent that it is a part of a whole mass of stress.
That is negligent. Many medical staff will be infected due to a lack of masks and protective equipment. Some of them will die trying to save other people and infect their own families. People dying because ding dongs didn't take pandemics seriously seems to escape your feeble understanding of the real world. This isn't a philosophy lesson. It's basic science. Humans will lack oxygen in their blood which medical personnel could give them but because we didn't get ready in time they will asphyxiate and die needlessly.
I have heard once that separating silence and materialism from philosophy is a relatively recent phenomena in human thought, and obviously, the extent it contributed to human well-being is open to interpretations. Regardless, i am not calling on central authorities or medical professionals to ignore what is happening or to do nothing about it, but rather separating how public knowledge emerges, and how it is potentially processed by individuals who have access to public knowledge.

I remember a dhamma talk by Ajahn Brahm describing the global financial crisis in 2008 when lay Buddhists used to go to the monastery and talk about the crisis. The venerable, in his funny and brilliant ways of teaching, made sure to mention how the monastics had no idea what the laity were talking about as their daily lives went on unaffected. It makes you wonder who are living in their own bubble, the laity or the monastics.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
Bundokji
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by Bundokji »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:51 am I think this is a rather implausible line of reasoning. It's true that individuals skilled in science, engineering, or medicine are quite specialised, but in their particular field they can not only "talk about it with more plausibility than average people", they can actually use their knowledge to do stuff (otherwise known as "engineering"). An understanding of semiconductors led to transistors (1947) and current semiconductor chips, and an understanding of quantum mechanics, and so on enabled the development of lasers, optical fibres, etc, in the 1960s. Further developments have made encryption based on quantum entanglement possible.

It's not that the people who did this stuff were "more plausible" than average people. It's that they had knowledge that the average person simply does not have.

Now, you've probably noticed that my examples are not in the area of pandemic management. That's because I am not an expert in that area. Nemo, on the other hand, has apparently worked in that area, so I've no idea why you are so dismissive of his knowledge. Furthermore I do know people who work in related areas (for example, my son works at Columbia U, in New York, on statistical analyses of the spread and treatment of Aids). In my experience, people work in such areas because they care about people.

As I said, this idea that experts are just charlatans is one of the scarily crazy developments of the 21st century. We rely more and more heavily on technology that is only possible because of science and engineering expertise, but there is more and more distrust of those experts.
Pointing to what modern science and technology were able to produce seems to be equally a part of the self-fulfilling nature of the system that we came to witness. This, in a way, led people to put more faith into it as if it is capable of solving all of their problems, which is in my view, turned into an over reliance on the system when its limitations to solve their problems became evident. This over reliance can manifest itself in many ways, such as storing toilet papers, or obsessively waiting for updates about the status of the world, until another drama emerges with the promise of solving it begins with declaring it as a crisis.

I was not dismissive of Namo's knowledge and expertise as they medical professionals have a role to play within the system. I am wondering why the mere reminder that the system is based on role playing sounds dismissive.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
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mikenz66
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by mikenz66 »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:49 am Pointing to what modern science and technology were able to produce seems to be equally a part of the self-fulfilling nature of the system that we came to witness. This, in a way, led people to put more faith into it as if it is capable of solving all of their problems, which is in my view, turned into an over reliance on the system when its limitations to solve their problems became evident. This over reliance can manifest itself in many ways, such as storing toilet papers, or obsessively waiting for updates about the status of the world, until another drama emerges with the promise of solving it begins with declaring it as a crisis.

I was not dismissive of Namo's knowledge and expertise as they medical professionals have a role to play within the system. I am wondering why the mere reminder that the system is based on role playing sounds dismissive.
My point was that expert knowledge is not just "being able to talk convincingly", or "playing a role in the system". It is "being able to actually explain, engineer, or fix particular things".

Try to build an fibre-optical amplifier or perform heart surgery, and let us know how you get on.

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Mike
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fwiw
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by fwiw »

I can see the Dunning-Kruger effect is in full swing these days. A sad showcase of self-described Buddhists' ignorance and vulnerability to propaganda
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
Bundokji
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by Bundokji »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:48 am My point was that expert knowledge is not just "being able to talk convincingly", or "playing a role in the system". It is "being able to actually explain, engineer, or fix particular things".

Try to build an fibre-optical amplifier or perform heart surgery, and let us know how you get on.

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Mike
The ability to fix particular things is what gives individuals a role to play within the system. It is equally a part of the system to create the perception of an "ideal" or "normal" state that warrants fixing things when phenomena deviates from it.

The accumulation of solutions within the system creates more problems that requires fixing ad infinitum. The need for heart surgery probably increased due to aging, which came as a result of other solutions that prolonged human life (but not necessarily its well-being). Until relatively recently, our ancestors lived without the skill of performing a heart surgery, and they adjusted accordingly. Possibly, they died more graciously than modern humans.

Who knows, maybe the current unprecedented state of affairs became excessive and nature has its own ways of bringing things back to balance such as strengthening our death instinct. While i admit that this is speculative, but it has explanatory power when it comes to the growing apatite for doom, be it climate change, corona virus, WW3 or any other scenario. Maybe people should be careful what they wish for.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
Miorita
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by Miorita »

Good morning!

The way to burn the karma of the disease is to actually burn it, that is to go through the disease or due to merit that is not visible to most, not contract it at all.

Today I'll go outside and let UV disinfect because I want to live. I've seen that they've been kept on quarantine on the cruise ship and consequently denied the opportunity to enjoy the outdoors. This ship, DW.org, can wait.

Have a good day!
Om Tare Tuttare Ture Soha - they say she helps remove obstacles
Relax! Do your best!
Miorita
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by Miorita »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:49 am This over reliance can manifest itself in many ways, such as storing toilet papers, or obsessively waiting for updates about the status of the world, until another drama emerges with the promise of solving it begins with declaring it as a crisis.
I admit I am waiting for updates and that is ingrained in the very word called "News" on TV, newspapers, computer. It's because I want to be aware of what is outside boundaries.

Since you call this experimenting, a "drama", I would like to remind you of Purusha and Prakriti, male and female principles.
You cannot be the principles and then even both at the same time. They are just notions for conveying meaning.
Om Tare Tuttare Ture Soha - they say she helps remove obstacles
Relax! Do your best!
Bundokji
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by Bundokji »

Miorita wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:37 pm I admit I am waiting for updates and that is ingrained in the very word called "News" on TV, newspapers, computer. It's because I want to be aware of what is outside boundaries.

Since you call this experimenting, a "drama", I would like to remind you of Purusha and Prakriti, male and female principles.
You cannot be the principles and then even both at the same time. They are just notions for conveying meaning.
News is general conveys what is perceived as "abnormal" and whats been recorded. For example, when news are taken out of context, it provides a distorted view of the world. The other side of the story is that news creates context due to its accessibility to people in different locations shaping public opinion and behavior. So, when people watch news individually/separately then gather to talk about it, it strengthens the perception that news is what the world really is.

For example, the regular media updates about corona virus speaks about recorded cases and death rates according to these recorded cases. Usually, recorded cases tend to be severe. What remains hidden from the public eye (and those working on solving the problem) is how many cases remain unrecorded simply because they are mild.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/wuha ... hed-2020-1

Due to the current ambiguity and lack of reliable information, public officials whether in governments or medical experts wont take a chance to save their own asses. They would rather take an overly cautious approach than risk their careers. The consequences of unjustifiably cautious approach that leads to public hysteria are forgivable in comparison with a more balanced approach if the disease proves to be more deadly than we currently know, keeping in mind that the whole system operates around the idea that human life is precious, of course unless you are an enemy of the state.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
Miorita
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by Miorita »

Rapid Response Platforms (it's in the news) is a way design answers before the virus arrives.
Usually it takes years to create a vaccine.
With the fast approaches, the scientists could come up with ways of producing antigens to Covid-19 in 16 wks.
Last edited by Miorita on Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Om Tare Tuttare Ture Soha - they say she helps remove obstacles
Relax! Do your best!
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mikenz66
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by mikenz66 »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:02 pm The ability to fix particular things is what gives individuals a role to play within the system. It is equally a part of the system to create the perception of an "ideal" or "normal" state that warrants fixing things when phenomena deviates from it.
I'm less and less sure what you are talking about.

You seem to be obsessed with a perception of social problems, possibly caused by misuse of technology. Is that what you are getting at?

My point is that you (am I!) have no clue how to build particular machines, do particular surgeries, or analyse particular statistics, whereas experts in those field do. That knowledge actually has an effect.

A non-expert can not do such things. They lack the knowledge/skill.

Of course, non-experts can (and should) have opinions about whether certain things should be done. Does the machine serve a useful purpose? Can we afford to pay for the surgery? Those are social issues which require different expertise.

But those social issues are distinct from the expert knowledge. My objection is when non-experts think that their analysis of the technicalities is better than that of the experts. Especially when those non-experts are politicians...

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Mike
Bundokji
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by Bundokji »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:28 pm I'm less and less sure what you are talking about.

You seem to be obsessed with a perception of social problems, possibly caused by misuse of technology. Is that what you are getting at?

My point is that you (am I!) have no clue how to build particular machines, do particular surgeries, or analyse particular statistics, whereas experts in those field do. That knowledge actually has an effect.

A non-expert can not do such things. They lack the knowledge/skill.

Of course, non-experts can (and should) have opinions about whether certain things should be done. Does the machine serve a useful purpose? Can we afford to pay for the surgery? Those are social issues which require different expertise.

But those social issues are distinct from the expert knowledge. My objection is when non-experts think that their analysis of the technicalities is better than that of the experts. Especially when those non-experts are politicians...

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Mike
I think we differ on emphasis, not principle. Your emphasis is on the technical aspect of what an expert can do, while my emphasis is on separating the metaphysical from the technical which is rarely acknowledged in public conversations.

When we deal with issues of meaning, values, life and death, right and wrong, good and bad, truth and authority ...etc we are referring to metaphysical aspects of the human experience. Unfortunately, most "experts" don't acknowledge or even know that their expertise is limited to the technical, not the metaphysical. Confusing the two by extending the expertise to include both realms is not science, but scientism, which is nothing but another dogma in my view.

More often than not, the "word" scientist is used to appeal to authority, especially in debates that are rooted in underlying subjective/metaphysical values such as religion, climate change, gender, biology vs sociology, the nature of the universe, health ...etc. Such appeal, in my view, is against the spirit of science.

So, developing the skill to talk with plausibility about a certain topic, or the ability to produce a machine or perform a surgery is a matter of training and there is nothing overly special about it. It is what everyone who specializes in a field can do, so introducing the word "scientist" (as opposite to merely mentioning the name of individual who had a say about a certain subject) is often redundant, fishy and alarming for people who think for themselves.

When it comes to corona virus, which is the topic in hand, i provided reasons why the current reaction is very likely to be exaggerated. I also provided an interpretation of the numbers and statistics provided and how it could be misleading. What does appeal to authority has to do with any of this? considering that science is a method of investigating, not a position based on certain individuals.

The nature of authority (and the danger of it) is that it easily escapes testing. If experts say something, then it should be accurate and agenda free! This is how this line of reasoning goes, evident by some of the replies i received on this thread so far. The following is only an example:
you must think medical professionals and scientists are idiots!!
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
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mikenz66
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by mikenz66 »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:15 pm When we deal with issues of meaning, values, life and death, right and wrong, good and bad, truth and authority ...etc we are referring to metaphysical aspects of the human experience. Unfortunately, most "experts" don't acknowledge or even know that their expertise is limited to the technical, not the metaphysical. Confusing the two by extending the expertise to include both realms is not science, but scientism, which is nothing but another dogma in my view.
Yes. we agree on that. I thought I was being careful to emphasise that.

I'm criticising the notion that non-experts - public, politicians - can assess the technicalities, in this case the spread of disease, without listening very carefully to experts (in that technical area). This

Your other concerns are valid, but irrelevant to my point. Also irrelevant is that fact that other people could become experts in these areas if they put the time and effort into it. They haven't, so they are not.

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Mike
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Nicholas
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by Nicholas »

The Center for Disease Control in the USA has good facts & suggestions:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html
Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, deep, subtle, difficult, delicate, unseen by passion’s slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance. Vipassī Buddha
Miorita
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by Miorita »

Live streaming on YouTube as channel of communication.
Om Tare Tuttare Ture Soha - they say she helps remove obstacles
Relax! Do your best!
Miorita
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by Miorita »

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Image

Out of … and … , there is this thing round and spikey. How can it be beneficial?
Om Tare Tuttare Ture Soha - they say she helps remove obstacles
Relax! Do your best!
SarathW
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by SarathW »

One thing for sure from this outbreak is the loss of privacy for many people the same way after 9/11.
Big brother will creep into all of our day to day life.

===============
The new normal': China's excessive coronavirus public monitoring could be here to stay

Others are more emphatic about the future. Wang Aizhong, an activist based in Guangzhou, said: “This epidemic undoubtedly provides more reason for the government to surveil the public. I don’t think authorities will rule out keeping this up after the outbreak.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... re-to-stay
Bundokji
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by Bundokji »

'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
Miorita
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Re: Corona virus outbreak

Post by Miorita »

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Is it a teaching? Because :rofl:
Om Tare Tuttare Ture Soha - they say she helps remove obstacles
Relax! Do your best!
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