Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

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NA Buddhist
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by NA Buddhist »

Charbel wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:07 am
NA Buddhist wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:27 am In my mind real peace would also have to include Lebanon and Syria. And that probably doesn't end the list of states.
It seems like you don't really understand the key issues.
About those "key issues". What seems plain to me is that you are narrowing down the issues in your mind.

The comment you quoted was about "peace in the Middle East", not just about Israel.
I have a certain fondness for Lebanon and the great multi-national city and refuge it once was and was becoming.

As I understand it there is a lot of conflict in that region that doesn't directly relate to Israel -- conflicts and duḥkha that would probably be going on if Israel had lost all the conflicts since 1948. Israel is not the cause of every instance of the three poisons.
So it seems to me that one real key issue is that is there are more than one conflict going on in that region.
Charbel wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:07 am Unless this refugee issue is resolved, the agreement with the UAE means nothing from a Dhammic perspective. Buddhism does not support murder, theft, covetous and supporting the lies & denials of evil-doers.
Means nothing? Really nothing? No such thing as a step in the right direction?

The Dhammic perspective as I understand it would reject such a polarized view. You can't have a Middle Way without encompassing at least two views on an issue.
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by NA Buddhist »

Charbel wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:07 am
NA Buddhist wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:27 am In my mind real peace would also have to include Lebanon and Syria. And that probably doesn't end the list of states.
It seems like you don't really understand the key issues.
About those "key issues". What seems plain to me is that you are narrowing down the issues in your mind.

The comment you quoted was about "peace in the Middle East", not just about Israel.
I have a certain fondness for Lebanon and the great multi-national city and refuge it once was and was becoming.

As I understand it there is a lot of conflict in that region that doesn't directly relate to Israel -- conflicts and duḥkha that would probably be going on if Israel had lost all the conflicts since 1948. Israel is not the cause of every instance of the three poisons.
So it seems to me that one real key issue is that is there are more than one conflict going on in that region.
Charbel wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:07 am Unless this refugee issue is resolved, the agreement with the UAE means nothing from a Dhammic perspective. Buddhism does not support murder, theft, covetous and supporting the lies & denials of evil-doers.
Means nothing? Really nothing? No such thing as a step in the right direction?

The Dhammic perspective as I understand it would reject such a polarized view. You can't have a Middle Way without encompassing at least two views on an issue.
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by NA Buddhist »

DNS wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:32 am :thumb:

Now if there could only be a real peace agreement between Israel & Palestine, then there might be real peace in the Middle East.
Can we agree that of all the difficult, contentious issues peace in the Middle East is one of the most difficult, contested possible issues?
I mean like so, so difficult it ought to be ruled an advanced topic not to be engaged in by ordinary persons?

But that said -- and maybe to prove my previous point -- but it seems to me that even if there was a real and working peace agreement between Israel & Palestine there still would be a awful lot of conflict going in in that region. Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, the Kurds, Egypt -- seems like each of those troubled areas would still be troubled even if a new Israel/Palestine became a "shinning light to the world".

Also, maybe we can also agree that so much depends on one's internal models, predictions, :stir: forecasts, judgements, prognostications, :juggling: guesses, conjectures, estimations, calculation, :broke: expectations and reckonings.
So if we are honest there is a lot of guess-work involved. Lots of if x then y reasoning about a uncertain future.

:lol: Not to mention what I see in my morning tea.
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by Dan74 »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:33 am
Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:59 pm The difference is that Arab countries historically don't recognize Israel's right to even exist.
If your statement is accurate then there would not be Arab peace initiative based on UN resolution 242.
:goodpost: What seem to me to be well-informed and balanced contributions to the thread. Something rarely seen in these parts..
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by DNS »

NA Buddhist wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:50 am Can we agree that of all the difficult, contentious issues peace in the Middle East is one of the most difficult, contested possible issues?
I mean like so, so difficult it ought to be ruled an advanced topic not to be engaged in by ordinary persons?
I don't agree to that. :tongue:

What have the politicians done for us and those in the region? Sometimes a good idea might come from outside the box.
But that said -- and maybe to prove my previous point -- but it seems to me that even if there was a real and working peace agreement between Israel & Palestine there still would be a awful lot of conflict going in in that region. Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, the Kurds, Egypt -- seems like each of those troubled areas would still be troubled even if a new Israel/Palestine became a "shinning light to the world".
True, but the Palestine-Israel issue is the crux. It is where Sunni, Shia, Druze, Samaritan, Christian, Jew all come together, typically in conflict but also many times in peace. It is the location of the holiest places to all the 3 great Abrahamic religions.
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by Charbel »

NA Buddhist wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:35 am Means nothing? Really nothing? No such thing as a step in the right direction?
Buddhism teaches about five precepts. One group came to possess the homes & land of the other group. 1.5 million of the other group remain homeless. This is the primary issue.
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by NA Buddhist »

Charbel wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:35 am Buddhism teaches about five precepts. One group came to possess the homes & land of the other group. 1.5 million of the other group remain homeless. This is the primary issue.
It seems to me that part of the truth (one of the five precepts) includes the hugely confounding factor of what the second group was attempting to do to the first group. And still threatens to do to the the first group.

It seems to me that it's more in alignment with the precept about truthfulness to say that the primary issue is:
* Group B tried to possess the homes & land of group A. Many members of group B tried to kill all members of group A.
* Now group A possesses some of the homes and lands formerly belonging to group B. In turn some members of group B now posses the former homes & lands of group A.
* Today some significant number of group B still threaten to kill and wipe out group A.

I'd say that this narrative is as credible and truthful a description of the primary issue as the one proposed by Charbel.
This is what makes this a really challenging and "hard" issue.
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by NA Buddhist »

Continuing with the thought from the recent post ...

This is what makes this a really challenging and "hard" issue.
In addition a right view on "the primary issue" needs must includes the long, agonizing history of attempts at reconciliation.

It's important to recognize this challenging aspect -- the issue is highly interdependent and surrounded by a thicket of views. So in all this context I don't accept one-sided seeming views of the particular situation and the meaning of the precepts or dharma as applied to that situation as antiquate to a right view of the situation.

The wise and compassionate would ask: is this what is called a 'wicked problem'?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem
The word "wicked" here denotes resistance to resolution, rather than evil.
A wicked problem is a social or cultural problem that is difficult or impossible to solve for as many as four reasons: incomplete or contradictory knowledge, the number of people and opinions involved, the large economic burden, and the interconnected nature of these problems with other problems.
Characteristics of wicked problems include:
* There is no complete template to follow when tackling a wicked problem, although history may provide a guide.
* There is always more than one explanation for a wicked problem, with the appropriateness of the explanation depending greatly on the individual perspective of the designer.

* Solutions to wicked problems can be only good or bad, not true or false. There is no idealized end state to arrive at, and so approaches to wicked problems should be tractable ways to improve a situation rather than [completely] solve it.
-- https://ssir.org/books/excerpts/entry/w ... th_solving
I believe the author was thinking of a "idealized end state" in the context of it being "hard, maybe impossible, to measure or claim success with wicked problems because they bleed into one another, unlike the boundaries of traditional design problems that can be articulated or defined. "

-----

Which raises the question of this thread and Charbel's insistence that:
Unless this refugee issue is resolved, the agreement with the UAE means nothing from a Dhammic perspective. Buddhism does not support murder, theft, covetous and supporting the lies & denials of evil-doers.
Even through the narrower lens of what Charbel describes as the "the primary issue" harmony with surrounding countries is more than nothing.
Charbel seems to propose a "all or nothing" view which in my judgement is not supported by Buddhist teaching or practical wisdom.

Going further. The assertion about what Buddhism does or doesn't support is troubling.
I'm not sure what the relevance of the last sentence is to the first. Even if the refugees are seen as being free of all murder, theft, covetous, lies etc why would better relations with a neighbor mean nothing?
From a Dhammic perspective it seem that in the immediate situation, the views expressed in this thread, might be tainted by covetous and denial or influenced unduly by lies of others.
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by Bundokji »

Bahrain just followed
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Dharmasherab
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by Dharmasherab »

I just saw this post now. Maybe my response is late, but better late than never.

It is true that there is a lot of things which are political between Israel and its neighbours.

But as a Buddhist, I first think about Buddhism before anything else. If we look at a lot of middle eastern countries, Buddhists dont have a lot of rights. There are laws in some nations that prohibit people from taking Refuge and joining Buddhism.

We dont have this problem in Israel. Israel does allow Buddhists to build Buddhist monasteries. There is no prohibition for people to take Refuge and turn to Buddhism. Given we as Buddhists are given these privilages in Israel it is important to be thankful. So for me whatever happens I am in favor of Israel.

As for the conflicts between Israel and other surrounding nations, its best to not get involved. All we have to do is to appreciate that we have rights in Israel to follow, practice and propagate Buddhism, and I hope the rest of the Middle East would give full rights to Buddhists and Buddhism.
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by Nicholas »

Dharmasherab wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:18 pm I just saw this post now. Maybe my response is late, but better late than never.

It is true that there is a lot of things which are political between Israel and its neighbours.

But as a Buddhist, I first think about Buddhism before anything else. If we look at a lot of middle eastern countries, Buddhists dont have a lot of rights. There are laws in some nations that prohibit people from taking Refuge and joining Buddhism.

We dont have this problem in Israel. Israel does allow Buddhists to build Buddhist monasteries. There is no prohibition for people to take Refuge and turn to Buddhism. Given we as Buddhists are given these privilages in Israel it is important to be thankful. So for me whatever happens I am in favor of Israel.

As for the conflicts between Israel and other surrounding nations, its best to not get involved. All we have to do is to appreciate that we have rights in Israel to follow, practice and propagate Buddhism, and I hope the rest of the Middle East would give full rights to Buddhists and Buddhism.
It is excellent to always put the Triple Gem first. But if the USA & other nations did not get "involved" Israel would never have come into being. All freer nations should support each other.
Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, deep, subtle, difficult, delicate, unseen by passion’s slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance. Vipassī Buddha
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by lyndon taylor »

So you support denying the Palestinians basic human rights??
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk.

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
Bundokji
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by Bundokji »

Dharmasherab wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:18 pm I just saw this post now. Maybe my response is late, but better late than never.

It is true that there is a lot of things which are political between Israel and its neighbours.

But as a Buddhist, I first think about Buddhism before anything else. If we look at a lot of middle eastern countries, Buddhists dont have a lot of rights. There are laws in some nations that prohibit people from taking Refuge and joining Buddhism.

We dont have this problem in Israel. Israel does allow Buddhists to build Buddhist monasteries. There is no prohibition for people to take Refuge and turn to Buddhism. Given we as Buddhists are given these privilages in Israel it is important to be thankful. So for me whatever happens I am in favor of Israel.

As for the conflicts between Israel and other surrounding nations, its best to not get involved. All we have to do is to appreciate that we have rights in Israel to follow, practice and propagate Buddhism, and I hope the rest of the Middle East would give full rights to Buddhists and Buddhism.
Maybe the Jewish identity and its relation to modern Israel is unique in the sense that converting to another religion does not make one any less of a Jew, at least from a demographic perspective. As long as the land is governed by a Jewish majority and owned by the state, then allowing other religions to be active maintains an image of a Jewish democracy.

For whatever reason, i see little value in Buddhism having a visible form especially in the age of the internet, but its always better, not worse, to allow people to choose their belief systems and to engage in rituals without much restrictions.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
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Dharmasherab
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by Dharmasherab »

lyndon taylor wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:50 am So you support denying the Palestinians basic human rights??
I never mentioned anything like this. There are human rights problems everywhere and the Israel-Palestinian issue is not unique.

Its just that from a Buddhist point of view, the existence of the state of Israel is far more aligned with the interests of Buddhism as far as the rights of Buddhists are concerned to practice and propagate freely. One of the wholesome actions is to acknowledge the help and support given to us. Israel compared to other surrounding states in the Middle East give the best rights to Buddhists. In other surrounding states (including Palestine) it is as offense to propagate Buddhism. The abbot in the monastery that I am living in said that in some of these Middle Eastern countries, Buddhist websites are blocked so people dont get the chance to learn about Buddhism and take Refuge. Buddhist monks are not allowed in countries like Saudi Arabia.

In Israel there are no restrictions like these. Buddhists teachings are allowed. Buddhists are allowed to practice their faith as they with as well as propagate the Dhamma/Dharma.

The Israel-Palestine conflict is a bilateral issue and as Buddhists it is best to maintain silence on the matter. Because if our actions cause Israel to become non-existent then the Buddhists living in these territories will lose their rights, Buddhists groups will be abolished and there will be restrictions on Buddhism which is not in our best interests as Buddhists.

We always need to keep in our minds, as those who have taken Refuge, that the BuddhaDhamma comes first and other worldly matter come second.
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Charbel
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by Charbel »

Dharmasherab wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:09 pm The Israel-Palestine conflict is a bilateral issue and as Buddhists it is best to maintain silence on the matter. Because if our actions cause Israel to become non-existent then the Buddhists living in these territories will lose their rights, Buddhists groups will be abolished and there will be restrictions on Buddhism which is not in our best interests as Buddhists.
:roll:
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Charbel
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by Charbel »

NA Buddhist wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:06 am ....
Sorry but whatever you write has no basis in Buddhism.
Bundokji
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by Bundokji »

Sudan-Israel relations agreed, Donald Trump announces

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-54554286

Another diplomatic achievement of Mr. Trump
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by DNS »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:53 pm Sudan-Israel relations agreed, Donald Trump announces

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-54554286

Another diplomatic achievement of Mr. Trump
That's good, but I'm still waiting for the Big One. The peace deal between Israel & Palestine. :popcorn:

If he can do that, then he should definitely get a Noble Peace Prize.
Bundokji
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by Bundokji »

DNS wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:07 pm That's good, but I'm still waiting for the Big One. The peace deal between Israel & Palestine. :popcorn:

If he can do that, then he should definitely get a Noble Peace Prize.
If he gets another term, he might be able to do it. The corrupt Palestinian Authority in Ramallah would like to see him go, but with more Arab countries normalizing relations, it is becoming increasingly difficult for them to hold their position.

The occupation served them well in the past, holding into power with corruption and little accountability, The division with Hamas in Gaza makes things even more difficult, It has to be a regional solution where Arabs, especially Egypt and Jordan assisting them having more autonomy. Full independence is out of the question. They wont get much more than whats been offered by Trump's plan, but they can always ask for more money if they are smart.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Israel - United Arab Emirates landmark accord

Post by lyndon taylor »

You seem to have so little empathy for the plight of the Palestinians, I thought you were Arabic??
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