Islam and Free Speech

Applying the Dharma to social justice issues – race, religion, sexuality and identity
mutsuk
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:52 am

Re: Islam and Free Speech

Post by mutsuk »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:40 pm Defining free speech in a way rooted against anything holy is imposing one's culture on others.
No, you don't get it. If muslims are offended by the caricatures in France, then they should either respect that criticism and caricatures are a trademark of western critical mind and if they don't like it they should move back to their countries. Do not reverse the problem: here in France, muslims are imposing us their tradition (like food is halal is all schools now, this is unacceptable). If they want to mix, they should respect our culture and history.
Respecting religious figures might help people avoid unnecessary suffering, similar to respecting the memory of those who died in the holocaust helps avoid unnecessary suffering,
Charlie Hebdo currently mocks jews, christians, and so forth. Only muslims find it offensive. Do you understand why this is a pretext?
If free speech can be limited in the case of the holocaust, then it can be limited in insulting religious figures.
Shoa is mocked by Charlie Hebdo alike. The biography of Mahomet is a story of blood and massacres. This is worse than caricatures.
They do not have to be under a sheet, nor they have to go around half naked. Stop judging women :popcorn:
What you cannot understand is that those who go around half naked do not try to impose others their way. The reverse is not true in particular of women under hijab, etc. How am I judging women? How are those you defend, who impose excision and infibulation, as well as physical violence, etc., not judging women? You're kidding right?
Why do you equate modesty with hijab? Hijab is only one way of showing modesty. In a previous post, i made sure not to equate modesty with hijab, but you seem to be triggered as a social justice warrior. Should we find safe space for you?
Hilarious! You can call me whatever you want but i'm certainly not a SJW and don't need any safe space. Rather, as a leftist, you definitely sound like you need to be reassured constantly. This is telling. You talk about safe space? :rofl:
And honestly what do you expect here, on a Buddhist forum, defending a "faith" or rather a political system that did its best to eradicate Buddhism throughout its encounter with Buddhism. Please enlighten me.
Bundokji
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Re: Islam and Free Speech

Post by Bundokji »

mutsuk wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:04 pm No, you don't get it. If muslims are offended by the caricatures in France, then they should either respect that criticism and caricatures are a trademark of western critical mind and if they don't like it they should move back to their countries. Do not reverse the problem: here in France, muslims are imposing us their tradition (like food is halal is all schools now, this is unacceptable). If they want to mix, they should respect our culture and history.
I thought they are both French citizens and Muslims. There is nothing called "western critical mind" except in your assertions, but to be fair to you, there are perceptions and ways of thinking that becomes habituated. If you care about the long term well being of your country, you would realize that what you are saying changes nothing to the better except a short term venting of your anger. Demography and time are not in your favor.

Charlie Hebdo currently mocks jews, christians, and so forth. Only muslims find it offensive. Do you understand why this is a pretext?
Your emphasis on "not imposing" is praiseworthy. If you are being fair and honest in your assessment, you would see that caricatures about Muslims and prophet Muhammad and Muslim culture is not only driven by humor, but deep disagreement and contempt to what it stands for. This explains why Muslims would be more triggered by it, or why they do not get as triggered if criticism about their belief system take the form of debate about views. Fairness in assessment begets seeking meaningful differences to explain phenomena.
Shoa is mocked by Charlie Hebdo alike. The biography of Mahomet is a story of blood and massacres. This is worse than caricatures.
Just read the above and see why Muslims tend to believe that the caricatures about prophet Muhammad differs in motive. You are just exposing what is really happening and justifying Muslims reaction. You are leading to the destruction of what you came to value without knowing it.
What you cannot understand is that those who go around half naked do not try to impose others their way. The reverse is not true in particular of women under hijab, etc. How am I judging women? How are those you defend, who impose excision and infibulation, as well as physical violence, etc., not judging women? You're kidding right?
There are different degrees of imposition from insinuation to physically forcing people to conform. Radical feminism is obsessed with men hence their hostility to any traditional roles women might take. The emphasis on choice overlooks the fact that choice is a mere convention, hence always negotiated in an endless game for power and dominance. A Buddhist understands this and uses rhetoric in a way that promotes human well-being. Equating well being with choice is a common mistake. Too common to be noticed.

And honestly what do you expect here, on a Buddhist forum, defending a "faith" or rather a political system that did its best to eradicate Buddhism throughout its encounter with Buddhism. Please enlighten me.
I would find it more enlightening if you assess how the emphasis on the right to insult Muslim faith would lead your country to a better future.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
mutsuk
Posts: 114
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Re: Islam and Free Speech

Post by mutsuk »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:49 pm I thought they are both French citizens and Muslims.
Not according to them: they are muslims, and then they are french for the dole and other allocations. But as a leftist, you won't recognize that.
There is nothing called "western critical mind" except in your assertions, but to be fair to you,
Stop mansplaining, you sound ridiculous.
Demography and time are not in your favor.
Sure, I haven't said the contrary. But I won't do anything to help that. I don't think this is sane for the whole world to let muslims spread their deadly propaganda and invasion everywhere.

You have not answered this (which is currently easy to understand why):
Charlie Hebdo currently mocks jews, christians, and so forth. Only muslims find it offensive. Do you understand why this is a pretext?
... is not only driven by humor, but deep disagreement and contempt to what it stands for.
Then you don't understand anything to the french tradition of caricatures. If you knew your history, you'd know that it goes back centuries. Also, even though we are under a socialist regime, we still have the right to disagree in the terms we chose with a system that beheads people for caricatures. You are trying to put that on the same level. To tell you the truth, this is simply disgusting. Being offended is one thing. Being beheaded is another. Putting that on a par is disgusting. Awful.
This explains why Muslims would be more triggered by it,
If they feel triggered, then they need a safe space: and the safe space is their country of origins.
or why they do not get as triggered if criticism about their belief system take the form of debate about views.
Hilarious again. Debating with a muslim is like debating with a leftist: you're bound to be called a nazi, a fascist, a racist. But look who supported Adolf in his enterprise of eradicating Jews from Europe? Who was that? Let's see... Oh yeah, muslims... right.
Just read the above and see why Muslims tend to believe that the caricatures about prophet Muhammad differs in motive. You are just exposing what is really happening and justifying Muslims reaction. You are leading to the destruction of what you came to value without knowing it.
Total nonsense, this is the view of most leftists and the reason why muslims are progressing in Europe. Cowardice. Of course, in your safe space, you cannot understand that. As a leftits you should know that even Popper had understood (but in a reverse way) that tolerating the intolerable is a political/historical mistake that leads to disaster.
I would find it more enlightening if you assess how the emphasis on the right to insult Muslim faith would lead your country to a better future.
Well, start by explaining us why, on a buddhist forum, you defend an ideology that destroyed Buddhism everywhere it encountered it. Trolling? A need to compensate? Enlighten us please.
Bundokji
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Re: Islam and Free Speech

Post by Bundokji »

mutsuk wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:15 pm Not according to them: they are muslims, and then they are french for the dole and other allocations. But as a leftist, you won't recognize that.
You might be describing Islamist, but not Muslims. For Islamists, religion is more important than nationalism. However, not all Muslims are islamists.

I noticed that you keep on using hasty generalizations, probably due to your lack of knowledge. For example, new immigrants might have weaker identification with the nation and culture than older immigrants who got more integrated. In my travels, i met French people from north African ancestors and who are Muslims. They are unrecognizable from the typical French in terms of they way they dress and behave and emphasis on their French identity.
Stop mansplaining, you sound ridiculous.
What is mansplaining? :popcorn:
Sure, I haven't said the contrary. But I won't do anything to help that. I don't think this is sane for the whole world to let muslims spread their deadly propaganda and invasion everywhere.
What deadly propaganda? In the realm of ideas, it is an open market. Discussants differ in the quality of their input. Your input thus far is pretty pedestrian and low in quality.
You have not answered this (which is currently easy to understand why):
In my reply to the OP, i explained and discussed why. Did you read the previous discussion before jumping in?
Then you don't understand anything to the french tradition of caricatures. If you knew your history, you'd know that it goes back centuries. Also, even though we are under a socialist regime, we still have the right to disagree in the terms we chose with a system that beheads people for caricatures. You are trying to put that on the same level. To tell you the truth, this is simply disgusting. Being offended is one thing. Being beheaded is another. Putting that on a par is disgusting. Awful.
You are avoiding addressing the point i made. this is what i said:
Your emphasis on "not imposing" is praiseworthy. If you are being fair and honest in your assessment, you would see that caricatures about Muslims and prophet Muhammad and Muslim culture is not only driven by humor, but deep disagreement and contempt to what it stands for. This explains why Muslims would be more triggered by it, or why they do not get as triggered if criticism about their belief system take the form of debate about views. Fairness in assessment begets seeking meaningful differences to explain phenomena.
And you just proved me right when you said:
Shoa is mocked by Charlie Hebdo alike. The biography of Mahomet is a story of blood and massacres. This is worse than caricatures
How about the French history in colonies? How many people were killed in Algeria and elsewhere? Human history is often not very pleasant.
If they feel triggered, then they need a safe space: and the safe space is their country of origins.
Again, you are avoiding the main point, that a certain interpretation of what it means to be French do not put Islam on equal footing with other traditions that is being caricatured.
Hilarious again. Debating with a muslim is like debating with a leftist: you're bound to be called a nazi, a fascist, a racist. But look who supported Adolf in his enterprise of eradicating Jews from Europe? Who was that? Let's see... Oh yeah, muslims... right.
How about the French who assisted the Nazis after the occupation of France? Human history is often not very pleasant :popcorn:
Total nonsense, this is the view of most leftists and the reason why muslims are progressing in Europe. Cowardice. Of course, in your safe space, you cannot understand that. As a leftits you should know that even Popper had understood (but in a reverse way) that tolerating the intolerable is a political/historical mistake that leads to disaster.
Why you keep referring to me as a leftist? You seem to be quite robotic and predictable. You parrot the way amateurs discuss politics on the internet. You can do better than that.
Well, start by explaining us why, on a buddhist forum, you defend an ideology that destroyed Buddhism everywhere it encountered it. Trolling? A need to compensate? Enlighten us please.
What made you think that i am presenting a position of defending Muslims? Stop being defensive. :pig:
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
mutsuk
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Re: Islam and Free Speech

Post by mutsuk »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:05 pm However, not all Muslims are islamists.
This is THE mistake all leftists do. We've seen that constantly here. Taqqiya is the key word. Get an education and find out what it means. You most certainly have no clue about it.
I noticed that you keep on using hasty generalizations, probably due to your lack of knowledge.
English is not my language. I'm doing my best. I am sincerely sorry not to be at the level of such a grandiose genius as you. You definitely have something to compensate, right?
For example, new immigrants might have weaker identification with the nation and culture than older immigrants who got more integrated.
This is both lack of knowledge and lack of intelligence of the facts. Typical leftist approach. You guys have a problem with facts, they can't enter your little boxes. Safe space is crucial for ye guys, hey?
In my travels, i met French people from north African ancestors and who are Muslims.
Can't always find nice people, right?
They are unrecognizable from the typical French in terms of they way they dress and behave and emphasis on their French identity.
Your lack of connection to reality makes you make big mistakes, starting with generalizing from your ridiculously limited experience.
What is mansplaining? :popcorn:
Leftits mantra you should know by now: google is your friend.
What deadly propaganda?
Oh this is pitiful. Koran. Did you read it? Did you read the hadith? You sound like you generalize without knowledge, a trademark of people from your political side.
Your input thus far is pretty pedestrian and low in quality.
Just trying to be factual, to make sure you understand. That's called pedagogy.
In my reply to the OP, i explained and discussed why. Did you read the previous discussion before jumping in?
I was reiterating the question because you don't obviously understand the question. And you don't understand why.
You are avoiding addressing the point i made. this is what i said:
No, I'm just highlighting the disgusting nature of your reflection on the issue. To me you just sound disgusting and not willing to understand (for lack of capacities obviously) the problem at stake.
How about the French history in colonies? How many people were killed in Algeria and elsewhere? Human history is often not very pleasant.
I'm not advocating colonialism. But if you want to go by numbers, how many people in the history of humanity were killed by muslims since the 7th century? You are just ridiculous. Still need to compensate, that's hilarious...
Again, you are avoiding the main point, that a certain interpretation of what it means to be French do not put Islam on equal footing with other traditions that is being caricatured.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
How about the French who assisted the Nazis after the occupation of France? Human history is often not very pleasant :popcorn:
I am not defending collaborationists nor colonialists. You have a binary bias, typical of leftists. But you are defending a political system (islam) that does not tolerate others. And stop mansplaining with your pathetical statement "Human history...", you do not seem to know much about the issue at stake.
Why you keep referring to me as a leftist?
It's because your think like one. You attack people with hatred like a leftist. You do not tolerate others' opinion. Basically you're a fascist leftist. So common these days...
You seem to be quite robotic and predictable.
You like to put people into little boxes, like portraying me as a SJW, you could not be more mistaken (but it's your trademark, right?)
You parrot the way amateurs discuss politics on the internet.
You have no way to know that. I hate politics and people who think they know it all, mansplaining in order to compensate. That's pathetic.
You can do better than that.
As I said above, I'm trying my best to stay at your level, making sure you understand clearly everything in a perspective that you are not accustomed to: subtleties :rofl:
What made you think that i am presenting a position of defending Muslims? Stop being defensive. :pig:
How am I defensive? Stop telling people what they have to do. What makes me think you defend muslims? Well, the vagueness (essentially factless rantings) of your argumentation, with generalizing statements that have no connection to reality, starting by presenting muslims as not being islamists, which is THE argumentation of all those who have not studied the hadiths and have no clue at taqqiya. Most evidently, you lack the basic culture and knowledge to discuss facts regarding what is unfolding with muslims in France, but as a mansplaining specialist, you think you know it all. Hilarious again. Thanks for having made that first day of our 2nd lockdown such an hilarious dialogue which shows one can have some funny ends of the day with blatantly uneducated people. Thanks again.
Bundokji
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Re: Islam and Free Speech

Post by Bundokji »

mutsuk wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:49 pm ------
If the first day of the 2nd lockdown did all of this to you, then you have my commiseration :toilet:
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
Bundokji
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Re: Islam and Free Speech

Post by Bundokji »

Macron acted wisely by moderating his tone in an interview with Aljazeera:
Macron 'can understand' Muslims' Muhammad cartoons shock

French President Emmanuel Macron has said he can understand why Muslims were shocked by controversial cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad.

But, in an interview with broadcaster Al Jazeera, he said he could never accept the issue justified violence.

It comes after Thursday's deadly knife attack on a church in Nice, the third suspected Islamist attack in the country in little more than a month.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54764000
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Islam and Free Speech

Post by Ceisiwr »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:28 pm Macron acted wisely by moderating his tone in an interview with Aljazeera:
Macron 'can understand' Muslims' Muhammad cartoons shock

French President Emmanuel Macron has said he can understand why Muslims were shocked by controversial cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad.

But, in an interview with broadcaster Al Jazeera, he said he could never accept the issue justified violence.

It comes after Thursday's deadly knife attack on a church in Nice, the third suspected Islamist attack in the country in little more than a month.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54764000
Macron gets it right for a change, although Le Penn is still preferable:

https://twitter.com/andrewdoyle_com/sta ... 03297?s=21
Bundokji
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Re: Islam and Free Speech

Post by Bundokji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:20 am Macron gets it right for a change, although Le Penn is still preferable:

https://twitter.com/andrewdoyle_com/sta ... 03297?s=21
He is indeed saying the right things. :thumb:
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
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Dharmasherab
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Re: Islam and Free Speech

Post by Dharmasherab »

A great article on Islam and Free Speech on WikiIslam. This will put the final word on this thread. It is very well researched and highly accurate free from the typical left wing-right wing biases.

Islam and Freedom of Speech
Zenny
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Re: Islam and Free Speech

Post by Zenny »

"Islam" is not a monolith. And there is a huge difference between the media's most extreme portrayals and the normal Muslims one can meet.
And the new generation of Muslims is much more laissez faire,and vocal against extremists. The average Muslim is just like a Christian or any other religious identity.
You can't judge by the media's sensationalism.
Last edited by Zenny on Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nicholas
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Re: Islam and Free Speech

Post by Nicholas »

Dharmasherab wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:29 am A great article on Islam and Free Speech on WikiIslam. This will put the final word on this thread. It is very well researched and highly accurate free from the typical left wing-right wing biases.

Islam and Freedom of Speech
Free of right-left bias, but hardly the final word. This quote from the page shows that "free speech" is impossible for a well-studied Muslim:
According to Islamic law, it is a criminal offense to speak ill of Islam, its Prophet, and its holy Scriptures (Qur'an and Hadith). Blasphemy is punishable by death.
Truth is against the stream of common thought, deep, subtle, difficult, delicate, unseen by passion’s slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance. Vipassī Buddha
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lyndon taylor
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Location: US occupied Northern Mexico

Re: Islam and Free Speech

Post by lyndon taylor »

Wikislam is an anti Muslim hate group, constantly misrepresenting Islam and Muslims in general, you have to be kind of stupid to take it seriously.
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